Hmm… Rori / Underwater. I’m gonna have to think about this before i decide whether or not to- oh wait, it seems I already started downloading it. Well that was an easy decision.
Thanks for doing this. One thing though, I know you guys keep honorifics, so why did you guys let Daiz remove the honorifics in CR’s subs for? I’m guessing he did his usually bullying?
Now, the subs aren’t perfect… Really, if possible, could you guys release a patch to put them back in?
Because it’s not like people read the translated subs mentally in their minds or anythng. Most of the time, people reads the subs faster and ahead of time before the voicing finishes a line, so it’s not like one’s mind is expecting what one has read to be what the characters say or anything. Oh, wait.
And definitely, it’s not like because of that, dissonance occurs, which is then followed by annoyance, even distraction, because one’s brain has to go back and try to fix the mis-match, right?
Your leap in logic is amusing, but extremly stupid. The only thing that I and most people like myself who don’t know moon language can do is pick out honorifics and certain number of famililiar words and phrases.
One mentally tries to fix a mismatch of what one read and expect, but hear differently only over things that one has knowledge over.
Even if it’s a sacastic retort, at least put more thought and effort into it, yeah?
To me, it is not so much about video/audio dissonance as it is nuance. The simple Ichigo-sama vs Ichigo-san vs Ichigo-chan says a lot, does it not? When the honorifics are dropped the nuance of the characteristics in the mood of the speaker are lost. While I am personally capable of understanding the raws (if I don’t get the station, I get fansubs for others in my house watching), not everyone is; and it has always annoyed me to see these ‘minor’ things removed by fansubbers. If you see them often enough, anyone will begin to understand the nuance, if left out, you’ll never get it.
Honorifics are hardly the only thing in Japanese that carry nuance. Nobody ever argues to keep things like personal pronouns in, even though they’re equally “untranslatable”.
But let’s mind that. Yes, I’m sure there are many words/phrases with nuances that lacks an equivalent translation. And I’m sure people can make arguments for those aforementioned words/phrases if they wanted to. But what about all that? The argument here is for honorifics, that obviously means the nuances from them are what we want. Though for me, my desire for honorifics extends past nuances. It’s about trying to retain as much as possible of the original personality and image of a character as well.
I see no reasons to when I’ve been, for the most part, satified and just when there’s an adequate translations. And I see you have run out of things to say. I guess that’s it then.
Forgetting this meaningless argument, I’m going back to my request that asks if rorisubs is willing to do a pay to put the honorifics back and possibly unlocalize that was localized. If a no is given about releasing a patch, then fine. That’s the end of me wondering about that.
For a different matter now. As Pettanko Maker has said, I also think Underwater is bad for rorisubs. Daiz will definitely corrupt you guys. He already has here with this release of Nyaruko. You guys are much better doing your own thing, which was already what I like and prefer, especially in regards to the subs. Don’t go down the wrong path because of Daiz. Seriously.
Not like you can even tell if the translation is adequate since you don’t speak Japanese. All you want is for the few words you’ve picked up from watching anime to be recognisable so you can feel like you’re really understanding the deep original Japanese meaning.
It’s also pretty hilarious that you think a collection of experienced subbers from various other groups that have worked on plenty of scripts without honorifics in the past are somehow going to be “corrupted” and “led on the wrong path” because Daiz is doing their encodes, but that’s a matter to be laughed at separately.
There’s a thing called complete ignorance, and it’s something that I don’t suffer from. I have a fair bit of knowledge when it comes to the language used in most anime. I’m also fairly cultured in the sub-culture that anime and manga are a part of. Taking those into consideration and the concept of having standards, I can, to a certain degree, determine whether a translation is adequate enough for me. One certainly does not need to fully know the Japanese language in order to understand the concept behind honorifics, its nuances, and how it contributes to a character’s personality and image.
Maybe you’re wholly ignorant since you sound like the type who blindly trusts whatever translations you get and since you aren’t cultured enough, you just take into what you get from the subs, even if they might be lacking or liberal.
What’s hilarious here is how you seemingly don’t know much about Underwater and their friends. Being experienced is irrelevant to the matters of corruption. It’s intent and objective that carries out corruption. He’s friends with Commie, who also works with gg, who then shares staff with Coalguys, and has supported and worked with them. All those groups, including Underwater, share the same translation philosophy and they like to forcibly spread that around to groups that they help or work together on a project. Just look at WhyNot. Commie has got to them already. Underwater is going to try to do the same with rorisubs. We wouldn’t be having this argument if they actually weren’t already doing just that.
And that distinctive delusion, insinuated rationalization, and use of irrelevant points to mask your lacking counterargument… Come on, Daiz. I know it’s you. Tsk, tsk. You said you weren’t going to discuss or get involved over translation topics anymore, remember?
@Sutai
Must I post that, Watch out for DAIZ.jpg?
I’m being serious here, though. I really wish you’d consider disbanding from this joint project with Underwater. But I see that’s probably not going to happen. Oh, well. That’s unfortunate.
Holy shit Space CQC, there is so much wrong with your posts (especially about who Daiz is friends with, you could not be more wrong). Please stop being such a legendarily massive faggot and stop getting butthurt over your precious kawaii desune -san and -chan.
I was hoping for some time that rori would find something good to keep going after Papakiki. I usually avoid anything that a certain individual is involved with, but I’m making an exception for this. Thank you.
Eh, I think this joint with Underwater is a bad idea and a negative influence on rorisubs. This reminds me of when a few of gg’s staff were working with Eclipse a couple of years ago. gg managed to corrupt Eclipse, resulting in Americanized translation despite Eclipse being strongly pro for unlocalized translation for a long time.
I hate Underwater’s sub policies where Americanization is carried out and, imo, I think you guys of rorisubs are better without them. You guys have been doing great so far, being the best subs for Papakiki. And the subs for Natsuiro have been good as well. For those two shows, you guys didn’t remove honorifics and didn’t localized the setting and culture. Being a sub group that has rori in its name, I had initially expected you guys to be the kind of fans who appreciated and supported honorifics and such, and I wasn’t disappointed after I saw the first episode of Papakiki that you guys did. You guys do love lolis, so I was nearly sure you guys would be the type of group that I’d like.
But now, this joint with Underwater has left me disappointed and fearful of corruption coming from Underwater.
I’m going to infer that it means a joint with another group that hates honorifics/has an Americanization policy will result subs being localized then.
What I have said I wasn’t far off at all. I pray that never carries over to a solo project or a joint with another group that supports honorifics and whatnot. I really wish you guys did Nyarlko as a solo project. I seriously wish so.
Uhh…. sorry, but no. Underwater has no “Americanization policy”. In fact, it’s the exact opposite: Underwater has a no-Americanization policy. I’m not an American myself, and believe that English fansubs serve an international audience. As such, country-specific localization is a thing to be avoided and the English should be universally understandable as long as the person watching has a good grasp of the language.
Not having honorifics comes from the fact that I don’t believe in leaving untranslated Japanese words in the subtitles for the sake of pleasing some weeaboos about how much Japanese they think they know by knowing them.
No, Daiz. Just no. That is a load of bull. You always localize the setting and culture, and that’s doing exactly that.
Oh, using the weeaboo card. So, if I flipped your belief around, then it’s you who is a reverse weeaboo for purely trying to satisfy and flaunt your English. Even if they make the translation inferior for those who get more out of unlocalized and deprive people of opportunites to learn about honorifics and a bit of Japanese culture, it’s fine because English is perfect and doesn’t never have a language and culture barrier problem, amirite?
>You always localize the setting and culture, and that’s doing exactly that.
Oh, yeah, just like last season when we were subbing Lagrange of Christian Afterlife, where we get to meet Mary, a sassy young gal living in the beach city of Oceanside, California and runs a “Sweats Club” at her all-girls high school.
Oh wait, except that we didn’t. This is what “localizing the setting and culture” or “heavy Americanization” would actually mean. We don’t do any of that at Underwater. Localizing itself, specifically to the linguistic culture of the target language, is an inherent part of translation itself. Or are you saying that idioms shouldn’t be localized either? I seriously hope not, because that wouldn’t be translating at all. You’d be just translating words instead of the meaning, which is what translation is actually about: Conveying the meaning of the source language in the target language.
Also, I sure must be one hell of a “reverse weeaboo” for wanting English instead of untranslated Japanese in my English subtitles of Japanese content. Yeah, right.
>Even if they make the translation inferior for those who get more out of unlocalized
Do you somehow lose your ability to hear when reading subtitles? If you understand something in Japanese, you should be able to pick it up from the audio. Do note, though, that even if you can pick up individual words, depending on the context (a highly important aspect of translation!) they might not mean what you expect. Contrary to what you might think, you don’t actually understand Japanese. I mean, that’s why you’re watching English subtitles to begin with, innit?
>deprive people of opportunites to learn about honorifics and a bit of Japanese culture
Except they don’t deprive people of anything. They’re still completely free to learn about Japanese language and culture even if their English anime subtitles translated something into English (how dare they!) I actually enjoy reading in-depth translation notes myself (like what [url=http://8ths.in]8thSin[/url] writes on his blog about the stuff he translates), but knowing the kind of stuff you can learn from them should never be necessary when watching the actual content itself. I watch anime primarily for entertainment, and I don’t want to be forced to learn some linguistics in order to enjoy it just because some translator happened to be in a lazy mood.
You’re making up an extreme example, one worst than what I had in mind. Honorifics usually are part of the setting and relationship, which is base on Japanese culture. You always omit them when given the chance. Additionally, you often unnecessarily change terms to suit western familiarity. An example would be like how you changed point card to loyalty card or from boy and girl of that age to teenager of the opposite sex. The latter case here also suffers from an issue, being that it doesn’t have the that Japanese anime/manga feel and diction, and instead, has a western feel.
I have a middle ground stance when it comes to tricky things like idioms. I’m against using English idioms as replacement, but am more than fine if they were translated in a way that tries to express their meaning as close as possible, and doing so by avoiding the use of personal liberal creativity.
Are you not? You seemingly want everything in a Japanese anime to be seemingly English because you just seem to have a hard-on for English. It’s not much different than what you seem to imagine in those you think are weeaboo for wanting untranslated Japanese in their English translation because they must worship Japanese. Since you scoff off at the thought of being a reverse weeaboo because it’s not like that, then you should think twice before accusing people of being a weeaboo.
The one true goal of translation is to let the targeted audience experience the original source in the same way the original audience did. But it’s not possible to have the targeted audience completely experience that in a way a native would through a translation, especially when it involves a complex language like Japanese. Without a doubt a loss in meaning will occur. Of course, good translator can reduce the loss, how much depends on the translator’s skill and how faithful the translation is to the original, in not just accuracy, but aspects such as respects to culture, subculture, foreign elements, context, word order, and style. And here’s the thing, comparing a good translation in accuracy and the aforementioned aspects vs a good unlocalized (honorifics, cultural elements, otaku lingo/references, setting and culture not being shifted to suit targeted audiences’ local culture/familiarity, etc) translation that also is good in accuracy and those aforementioned aspects, the latter would for certain be closer to the original thus the experience the targeted audience receives is closer to the original audience as well. There are a few other reasons too like being less awkward, greater understanding, pleasure, and so on, but.the certainty of a good unlocalized translation allowing the targeted audience to experience a closer experience to how the original experienced it is undeniable and is normally the main support for unlocalized translations.
>Do you somehow lose your ability to hear when reading subtitles?
>depending on the context (a highly important aspect of translation!) they might not mean what you expect.
Refer to Space CQC’s posts regarding dissonance and my paragraph above.
>Contrary to what you might think, you don’t actually understand Japanese.
You’re one to talk, Daiz. I never said or implied that I knew the language itself well enough to not need a translation. Though, I’m not exactly wholly ignorant of the frequently used Japanese phrases and saying that’s always used in anime. Slang, honorifics, and certain cultural concepts are different matter and doesn’t require one to know the language to understand them.
>Except they don’t deprive people of anything.
It does. Sure,it’s not the only way to learn, but it at least the main one. To attract interest and be given an opportunity to learn and build a foundation from exposure and usage is what would be deprived for the majority who watches anime. I myself would have the knowledge and interest in honorifics and the otaku subculture if it weren’t for past anime fansubs and scanned manga for not shying away from honorifics, otaku slang, TL notes, and so on.
>but knowing the kind of stuff you can earn from them should never be necessary when watching the actual content tself. I watch anime primarily for entertainment, and I don’t want to be forced to learn some linguistics in order to enjoy it just because some translator happened to be in a lazy mood
Really, Daiz? Some times it’s necessary to learn in order to know, to get a better understanding, to get the best out of something, or to even know what’s happening or just what is what. You’re making excuses for those too lazy or dumb if you think learning is that hard or ruins enjoyment. Some people actually need a push to get them going.
You should be pitied for believing unlocalized translation is the result of laziness. A TL who can translate well is good. But a TL who can translate well, acknowledge that some things are best left untranslated, and isn’t afraid to allow people to learn and grow to appreciate is better and the wiser TL.
“The one true goal of translation is to let the targeted audience experience the original source in the same way the original audience did.”
No part of the translation style you support achieves this. For the original Japanese audience, all the words, idioms and cultural references are of their own. For the English audience in a poorly translated script like you seem to prefer, everything is foreign.
The only time a script like the kind you describe would possibly let the targeted audience have the same experience that the original audience did is if the original show was full of awkward English words and phrases that the original audience found incomprehensible without specialised knowledge.
Jesus Christ people. You should channel that kind of passion into something else that matters. If you don’t like how they INTERPRET the language, just go to Crunchy Roll or something. You want to learn about their culture? Well shit, then go to Japan or watch the damn culture videos.
I just believe that your argument should be less spent on trying to change a translator’s mind on how they interpret the language and more on just trying to enjoy the cartoon. For fuck’s sake.
You have no idea what you’re talking about and your insinuation will get you nowhere.
You seemingly didn’t even read what I’ve said about how it isn’t possible for the targeted audience have the same experience as the original audience due to the inevitable loss of meaning. Of course, that’s due to the difference in language, culture, and even idioms.
But, that doesn’t mean a good translation can’t reduce that loss in meaning by being as close as possible to the original and by retaining specific concepts and words. Or do you disagree that a good translation can’t ever possibly express and convey, on some levels, the meaning that the original audience experiences to the targeted audience? The main goal of a translation is to ensure that the targeted audience receives an experience that is as close as possible to the original. It’s a matter of bringing and conveying the meaning, nuances, context, concepts, and, yes, even the culture to the targeted audience. It shouldn’t be the other way around where the translation transforms or shifts the meaning, nuances, context, concepts, and culture to what the targeted audience is familiar with, being own. Having said that, this doesn’t mean that there isn’t a line here. Where that line is depends on the targeted audience themselves. How much do they know and can understand determines the level of much one can bring over and retain the original’s language and culture. Since the main audience that fan translations are meant for are anime and manga fans, the level is high enough to allow honorifics, otaku lingo, frequently used/popular Japanese idioms and phrases used in anime /manga, and a closer to literal than liberal translation. The translation convention that most fan translation follows does this.because it’s demanded. It’s not incomprehensible for them. And just like how a couple of others in here have said, people who might be new to the fan translation scene and otaku/Japanese culture will be able to learn and become cultured over time if they get exposed an unlocalized translation, so it’s only beneficial for them.
Taking all I’ve said, it should be apparent that is a matter of delivering how the original language was expressed in it’s own language, as close to it as possible anyways, to the targeted audience. The targeted audience here are fans who have enough familiarity with such things as Japanese honorifics and specific untranslated words, so there shouldn’t be any issues in doing just that.
>Or do you disagree that a good translation can’t ever possibly express and convey, on some levels, the meaning that the original audience experiences to the targeted audience?
Nope, but it certainly never will the way you want it to be done.
>You have no idea what you’re talking about
Yeah I guess that’s why I fansub and you spend your time complaining on a blog about superficial rubbish.
>Nope, but it certainly never will the way you want it to be done.
So you don’t disagree on that…. How about arguing how unlocalized translation isn’t better then? Amuse me instead of dismissing it because you simply believe otherwise. And if it will never be done in the way I want it to be done, then why have there already been countless translations that are more or less how I want it?
>Yeah I guess that’s why I fansub and you spend your time complaining on a blog about superficial rubbish.
Fansubber or not, you clearly don’t know what you’re talking. I t shows in your posts that you don’t. I guess a translation that is better and closer to the original source in terms of meaning, nuances, and portrayal is all superficial rubbish for because you don’t care and think it’s useless. As much as you don’t, other people do care about improving their own watching/reading experience. How hilarious, one thing that you do care for is to spend your time arguing on a blog over something you don’t care for. You have even been arguing longer than I have.
>I guess a translation that is better and closer to the original source in terms of meaning, nuances, and portrayal is all superficial rubbish for because you don’t care and think it’s useless.
Nope, that’s actually very important in a translation. But sprinkling honorifics throughout a translation isn’t what adds meaning, nuance and portrayal to it, it’s the quality of the actual translation itself that does that. Compared to that, caring about whether honorifics are there or not is indeed superficial rubbish. My preference is not to have them, but I’ll go with whoever has the best translation/editing regardless of that (this usually seems to be the groups who avoid using them, coincidentally enough)
>How about arguing how unlocalized translation isn’t better then?
We’re not even talking about localization. If you want to seem like you know what you’re talking about, a good start would be learning the meaning of the words you use.
Daiz is a known fansubbing terrorist, accused of having dealings with the infamous groups, gg, Commie and Coalguys, and killing millions of innocent honorifics and weeabooisms. He is also thought to be responsible for promoting the hated 10-bit encode, and killing fansubbing in general.
If you see this person, please contact the Internet Police immediately. We must stop him before he corrupts any more innocent fansub groups.
How the FUCK do you get an “l” in there? Every site I’ve seen translates it to “Nyarko” or “Nyaruko” (AniDB, AnimeNewsNetwork, TheTVDB, even Wikipedia). I admit to not knowing Japanese myself, but I have never seen anything translated like that.
But it seems that Rori, Underwater, and GG are the only ones subbing this, and they all used “l”. Weird as hell.
It’s just a matter of feel. While Nyar/Nyaruko is the accurate name, Nyarlko actually sounds like what it is supposed to be. Nyarko is read Ni-iar-ko and Nyaruko Ni-ia-ru-ko, one omits the “ru” and the other is too pronounced, Nyarlko actually make us read the “arl” part of the name without sounding out of place. Well, I guess.
…Once again, overthinking loses against common sense. Yeah, that. It’s not like names and titles can be weird with japanese being such a different language and all!… Oh who am I fooling.
Wow, this sure was fun to read. I used to want honorifics in every sub too, then I realized “Wait, I can hear them anyway”. But it seems I’m one of the special people who ca read AND listen at the same time.
I don’t think you’ve read enough. I don’t think you actually cared about honorifics at all either. My argument covers why it’d make the translation better. And Space CQC pointed out the issues when subs lack honorifics and you have to go by audio. Why make it unpleasant for the mind? Both the ear and mind should be pleased. I’ll add that it’s bad practice, especially in shaping and nuturing anime/manga fans and fansubbbers. Also, that excuse wouldn’t work on source that are text based.
I don’t really know what your problem is, but for me, and a lot of other people, it is not “unpleasant for the mind”. Just because that’s how you feel does not mean that how everyone else feels. Grow up.
Wanting a better watching experience.and translation is my problem, I guess? I was considering the general who actually cares, not those who don’t or even dislikes it. I suppose you should count yourself fortunate for having a callous mind.
@Xythar
I wonder how you get by with all those unavoidable untranslated Japanese names, nouns, and terms. I think you should consider dropping anime….no, Japan completely.
@Pettanko Maker
I wonder how you get by with all those unavoidably translated English words in your subtitles that couldn’t possibly capture the deep original meaning of the original Japanese script. I think you should consider dropping life completely.
I came… JUST FOR THIS EPISODE!
Thanks so much! THIS SEASON IS GONNA BE AWESOME!
THANKS SO MUCH FOR DOING THIS SHOW!
P.S. Nice look!
Hmm… Rori / Underwater. I’m gonna have to think about this before i decide whether or not to- oh wait, it seems I already started downloading it. Well that was an easy decision.
Thanks for doing this. One thing though, I know you guys keep honorifics, so why did you guys let Daiz remove the honorifics in CR’s subs for? I’m guessing he did his usually bullying?
Now, the subs aren’t perfect… Really, if possible, could you guys release a patch to put them back in?
>2012
>still being anal about honorifics
Honorifics are serious business. Awareness and demain only increase with each passing year among general fans. You should know this.
Seriously, Asumi Kana’s Mahiro-san~ just isn’t the same without that -san. Among other things as well.
It was pretty out-of-line for them to remove the ‘san’ from the audio so that you could no longer hear Kana Asumi say it, yeah.
Oh, wait.
Because it’s not like people read the translated subs mentally in their minds or anythng. Most of the time, people reads the subs faster and ahead of time before the voicing finishes a line, so it’s not like one’s mind is expecting what one has read to be what the characters say or anything. Oh, wait.
And definitely, it’s not like because of that, dissonance occurs, which is then followed by annoyance, even distraction, because one’s brain has to go back and try to fix the mis-match, right?
Sounds like you want subs that are 100% romaji, then. Just think about all the dissonance you’re getting by hearing Japanese and seeing English!
Your leap in logic is amusing, but extremly stupid. The only thing that I and most people like myself who don’t know moon language can do is pick out honorifics and certain number of famililiar words and phrases.
One mentally tries to fix a mismatch of what one read and expect, but hear differently only over things that one has knowledge over.
Even if it’s a sacastic retort, at least put more thought and effort into it, yeah?
To me, it is not so much about video/audio dissonance as it is nuance. The simple Ichigo-sama vs Ichigo-san vs Ichigo-chan says a lot, does it not? When the honorifics are dropped the nuance of the characteristics in the mood of the speaker are lost. While I am personally capable of understanding the raws (if I don’t get the station, I get fansubs for others in my house watching), not everyone is; and it has always annoyed me to see these ‘minor’ things removed by fansubbers. If you see them often enough, anyone will begin to understand the nuance, if left out, you’ll never get it.
Honorifics are hardly the only thing in Japanese that carry nuance. Nobody ever argues to keep things like personal pronouns in, even though they’re equally “untranslatable”.
You…didn’t make a real counterargument, you know.
But let’s mind that. Yes, I’m sure there are many words/phrases with nuances that lacks an equivalent translation. And I’m sure people can make arguments for those aforementioned words/phrases if they wanted to. But what about all that? The argument here is for honorifics, that obviously means the nuances from them are what we want. Though for me, my desire for honorifics extends past nuances. It’s about trying to retain as much as possible of the original personality and image of a character as well.
Then you should probably learn Japanese and watch the shows raw.
I see no reasons to when I’ve been, for the most part, satified and just when there’s an adequate translations. And I see you have run out of things to say. I guess that’s it then.
Forgetting this meaningless argument, I’m going back to my request that asks if rorisubs is willing to do a pay to put the honorifics back and possibly unlocalize that was localized. If a no is given about releasing a patch, then fine. That’s the end of me wondering about that.
For a different matter now. As Pettanko Maker has said, I also think Underwater is bad for rorisubs. Daiz will definitely corrupt you guys. He already has here with this release of Nyaruko. You guys are much better doing your own thing, which was already what I like and prefer, especially in regards to the subs. Don’t go down the wrong path because of Daiz. Seriously.
Not like you can even tell if the translation is adequate since you don’t speak Japanese. All you want is for the few words you’ve picked up from watching anime to be recognisable so you can feel like you’re really understanding the deep original Japanese meaning.
It’s also pretty hilarious that you think a collection of experienced subbers from various other groups that have worked on plenty of scripts without honorifics in the past are somehow going to be “corrupted” and “led on the wrong path” because Daiz is doing their encodes, but that’s a matter to be laughed at separately.
Yes, Daiz led me to the wrong path. Now I’m battering my waifu, smoking weed, and made rori drop honorifics.
There’s a thing called complete ignorance, and it’s something that I don’t suffer from. I have a fair bit of knowledge when it comes to the language used in most anime. I’m also fairly cultured in the sub-culture that anime and manga are a part of. Taking those into consideration and the concept of having standards, I can, to a certain degree, determine whether a translation is adequate enough for me. One certainly does not need to fully know the Japanese language in order to understand the concept behind honorifics, its nuances, and how it contributes to a character’s personality and image.
Maybe you’re wholly ignorant since you sound like the type who blindly trusts whatever translations you get and since you aren’t cultured enough, you just take into what you get from the subs, even if they might be lacking or liberal.
What’s hilarious here is how you seemingly don’t know much about Underwater and their friends. Being experienced is irrelevant to the matters of corruption. It’s intent and objective that carries out corruption. He’s friends with Commie, who also works with gg, who then shares staff with Coalguys, and has supported and worked with them. All those groups, including Underwater, share the same translation philosophy and they like to forcibly spread that around to groups that they help or work together on a project. Just look at WhyNot. Commie has got to them already. Underwater is going to try to do the same with rorisubs. We wouldn’t be having this argument if they actually weren’t already doing just that.
And that distinctive delusion, insinuated rationalization, and use of irrelevant points to mask your lacking counterargument… Come on, Daiz. I know it’s you. Tsk, tsk. You said you weren’t going to discuss or get involved over translation topics anymore, remember?
@Sutai
Must I post that, Watch out for DAIZ.jpg?
I’m being serious here, though. I really wish you’d consider disbanding from this joint project with Underwater. But I see that’s probably not going to happen. Oh, well. That’s unfortunate.
Ahahahaha wow.
Posting here was so worth it.
Holy shit Space CQC, there is so much wrong with your posts (especially about who Daiz is friends with, you could not be more wrong). Please stop being such a legendarily massive faggot and stop getting butthurt over your precious kawaii desune -san and -chan.
>Ahahahaha wow.
>Posting here was so worth it.
The sounds of someone who’s doing it for the LULZ would make.
i encountered an error at
13min 52sec
my player poped up an error message pls help
btw its potplayer
use CCCP
Thanks for the episode!
alreadly did and still not working
1 good thing about pot player is u can customise both audio and video codecs
Sounds like a corrupted file, get the torrent and rehash.
Oh sweet. Thanks!
I was hoping for some time that rori would find something good to keep going after Papakiki. I usually avoid anything that a certain individual is involved with, but I’m making an exception for this. Thank you.
Eh, I think this joint with Underwater is a bad idea and a negative influence on rorisubs. This reminds me of when a few of gg’s staff were working with Eclipse a couple of years ago. gg managed to corrupt Eclipse, resulting in Americanized translation despite Eclipse being strongly pro for unlocalized translation for a long time.
I hate Underwater’s sub policies where Americanization is carried out and, imo, I think you guys of rorisubs are better without them. You guys have been doing great so far, being the best subs for Papakiki. And the subs for Natsuiro have been good as well. For those two shows, you guys didn’t remove honorifics and didn’t localized the setting and culture. Being a sub group that has rori in its name, I had initially expected you guys to be the kind of fans who appreciated and supported honorifics and such, and I wasn’t disappointed after I saw the first episode of Papakiki that you guys did. You guys do love lolis, so I was nearly sure you guys would be the type of group that I’d like.
But now, this joint with Underwater has left me disappointed and fearful of corruption coming from Underwater.
This is a joint. Solo projects will always have honorifics.
I’m going to infer that it means a joint with another group that hates honorifics/has an Americanization policy will result subs being localized then.
What I have said I wasn’t far off at all. I pray that never carries over to a solo project or a joint with another group that supports honorifics and whatnot. I really wish you guys did Nyarlko as a solo project. I seriously wish so.
>have said wasn’t far off*
Fixing.
If you’re not happy Pettanko Maker, watch someone else. Nothing will change with your complaints.
>has an Americanization policy
Uhh…. sorry, but no. Underwater has no “Americanization policy”. In fact, it’s the exact opposite: Underwater has a no-Americanization policy. I’m not an American myself, and believe that English fansubs serve an international audience. As such, country-specific localization is a thing to be avoided and the English should be universally understandable as long as the person watching has a good grasp of the language.
Not having honorifics comes from the fact that I don’t believe in leaving untranslated Japanese words in the subtitles for the sake of pleasing some weeaboos about how much Japanese they think they know by knowing them.
No, Daiz. Just no. That is a load of bull. You always localize the setting and culture, and that’s doing exactly that.
Oh, using the weeaboo card. So, if I flipped your belief around, then it’s you who is a reverse weeaboo for purely trying to satisfy and flaunt your English. Even if they make the translation inferior for those who get more out of unlocalized and deprive people of opportunites to learn about honorifics and a bit of Japanese culture, it’s fine because English is perfect and doesn’t never have a language and culture barrier problem, amirite?
>You always localize the setting and culture, and that’s doing exactly that.
Oh, yeah, just like last season when we were subbing Lagrange of Christian Afterlife, where we get to meet Mary, a sassy young gal living in the beach city of Oceanside, California and runs a “Sweats Club” at her all-girls high school.
Oh wait, except that we didn’t. This is what “localizing the setting and culture” or “heavy Americanization” would actually mean. We don’t do any of that at Underwater. Localizing itself, specifically to the linguistic culture of the target language, is an inherent part of translation itself. Or are you saying that idioms shouldn’t be localized either? I seriously hope not, because that wouldn’t be translating at all. You’d be just translating words instead of the meaning, which is what translation is actually about: Conveying the meaning of the source language in the target language.
Also, I sure must be one hell of a “reverse weeaboo” for wanting English instead of untranslated Japanese in my English subtitles of Japanese content. Yeah, right.
>Even if they make the translation inferior for those who get more out of unlocalized
Do you somehow lose your ability to hear when reading subtitles? If you understand something in Japanese, you should be able to pick it up from the audio. Do note, though, that even if you can pick up individual words, depending on the context (a highly important aspect of translation!) they might not mean what you expect. Contrary to what you might think, you don’t actually understand Japanese. I mean, that’s why you’re watching English subtitles to begin with, innit?
>deprive people of opportunites to learn about honorifics and a bit of Japanese culture
Except they don’t deprive people of anything. They’re still completely free to learn about Japanese language and culture even if their English anime subtitles translated something into English (how dare they!) I actually enjoy reading in-depth translation notes myself (like what [url=http://8ths.in]8thSin[/url] writes on his blog about the stuff he translates), but knowing the kind of stuff you can learn from them should never be necessary when watching the actual content itself. I watch anime primarily for entertainment, and I don’t want to be forced to learn some linguistics in order to enjoy it just because some translator happened to be in a lazy mood.
You’re making up an extreme example, one worst than what I had in mind. Honorifics usually are part of the setting and relationship, which is base on Japanese culture. You always omit them when given the chance. Additionally, you often unnecessarily change terms to suit western familiarity. An example would be like how you changed point card to loyalty card or from boy and girl of that age to teenager of the opposite sex. The latter case here also suffers from an issue, being that it doesn’t have the that Japanese anime/manga feel and diction, and instead, has a western feel.
I have a middle ground stance when it comes to tricky things like idioms. I’m against using English idioms as replacement, but am more than fine if they were translated in a way that tries to express their meaning as close as possible, and doing so by avoiding the use of personal liberal creativity.
Are you not? You seemingly want everything in a Japanese anime to be seemingly English because you just seem to have a hard-on for English. It’s not much different than what you seem to imagine in those you think are weeaboo for wanting untranslated Japanese in their English translation because they must worship Japanese. Since you scoff off at the thought of being a reverse weeaboo because it’s not like that, then you should think twice before accusing people of being a weeaboo.
The one true goal of translation is to let the targeted audience experience the original source in the same way the original audience did. But it’s not possible to have the targeted audience completely experience that in a way a native would through a translation, especially when it involves a complex language like Japanese. Without a doubt a loss in meaning will occur. Of course, good translator can reduce the loss, how much depends on the translator’s skill and how faithful the translation is to the original, in not just accuracy, but aspects such as respects to culture, subculture, foreign elements, context, word order, and style. And here’s the thing, comparing a good translation in accuracy and the aforementioned aspects vs a good unlocalized (honorifics, cultural elements, otaku lingo/references, setting and culture not being shifted to suit targeted audiences’ local culture/familiarity, etc) translation that also is good in accuracy and those aforementioned aspects, the latter would for certain be closer to the original thus the experience the targeted audience receives is closer to the original audience as well. There are a few other reasons too like being less awkward, greater understanding, pleasure, and so on, but.the certainty of a good unlocalized translation allowing the targeted audience to experience a closer experience to how the original experienced it is undeniable and is normally the main support for unlocalized translations.
>Do you somehow lose your ability to hear when reading subtitles?
>depending on the context (a highly important aspect of translation!) they might not mean what you expect.
Refer to Space CQC’s posts regarding dissonance and my paragraph above.
>Contrary to what you might think, you don’t actually understand Japanese.
You’re one to talk, Daiz. I never said or implied that I knew the language itself well enough to not need a translation. Though, I’m not exactly wholly ignorant of the frequently used Japanese phrases and saying that’s always used in anime. Slang, honorifics, and certain cultural concepts are different matter and doesn’t require one to know the language to understand them.
>Except they don’t deprive people of anything.
It does. Sure,it’s not the only way to learn, but it at least the main one. To attract interest and be given an opportunity to learn and build a foundation from exposure and usage is what would be deprived for the majority who watches anime. I myself would have the knowledge and interest in honorifics and the otaku subculture if it weren’t for past anime fansubs and scanned manga for not shying away from honorifics, otaku slang, TL notes, and so on.
>but knowing the kind of stuff you can earn from them should never be necessary when watching the actual content tself. I watch anime primarily for entertainment, and I don’t want to be forced to learn some linguistics in order to enjoy it just because some translator happened to be in a lazy mood
Really, Daiz? Some times it’s necessary to learn in order to know, to get a better understanding, to get the best out of something, or to even know what’s happening or just what is what. You’re making excuses for those too lazy or dumb if you think learning is that hard or ruins enjoyment. Some people actually need a push to get them going.
You should be pitied for believing unlocalized translation is the result of laziness. A TL who can translate well is good. But a TL who can translate well, acknowledge that some things are best left untranslated, and isn’t afraid to allow people to learn and grow to appreciate is better and the wiser TL.
“The one true goal of translation is to let the targeted audience experience the original source in the same way the original audience did.”
No part of the translation style you support achieves this. For the original Japanese audience, all the words, idioms and cultural references are of their own. For the English audience in a poorly translated script like you seem to prefer, everything is foreign.
The only time a script like the kind you describe would possibly let the targeted audience have the same experience that the original audience did is if the original show was full of awkward English words and phrases that the original audience found incomprehensible without specialised knowledge.
Jesus Christ people. You should channel that kind of passion into something else that matters. If you don’t like how they INTERPRET the language, just go to Crunchy Roll or something. You want to learn about their culture? Well shit, then go to Japan or watch the damn culture videos.
I just believe that your argument should be less spent on trying to change a translator’s mind on how they interpret the language and more on just trying to enjoy the cartoon. For fuck’s sake.
It’s that important? Hardly.
@Xythar
You have no idea what you’re talking about and your insinuation will get you nowhere.
You seemingly didn’t even read what I’ve said about how it isn’t possible for the targeted audience have the same experience as the original audience due to the inevitable loss of meaning. Of course, that’s due to the difference in language, culture, and even idioms.
But, that doesn’t mean a good translation can’t reduce that loss in meaning by being as close as possible to the original and by retaining specific concepts and words. Or do you disagree that a good translation can’t ever possibly express and convey, on some levels, the meaning that the original audience experiences to the targeted audience? The main goal of a translation is to ensure that the targeted audience receives an experience that is as close as possible to the original. It’s a matter of bringing and conveying the meaning, nuances, context, concepts, and, yes, even the culture to the targeted audience. It shouldn’t be the other way around where the translation transforms or shifts the meaning, nuances, context, concepts, and culture to what the targeted audience is familiar with, being own. Having said that, this doesn’t mean that there isn’t a line here. Where that line is depends on the targeted audience themselves. How much do they know and can understand determines the level of much one can bring over and retain the original’s language and culture. Since the main audience that fan translations are meant for are anime and manga fans, the level is high enough to allow honorifics, otaku lingo, frequently used/popular Japanese idioms and phrases used in anime /manga, and a closer to literal than liberal translation. The translation convention that most fan translation follows does this.because it’s demanded. It’s not incomprehensible for them. And just like how a couple of others in here have said, people who might be new to the fan translation scene and otaku/Japanese culture will be able to learn and become cultured over time if they get exposed an unlocalized translation, so it’s only beneficial for them.
Taking all I’ve said, it should be apparent that is a matter of delivering how the original language was expressed in it’s own language, as close to it as possible anyways, to the targeted audience. The targeted audience here are fans who have enough familiarity with such things as Japanese honorifics and specific untranslated words, so there shouldn’t be any issues in doing just that.
>Or do you disagree that a good translation can’t ever possibly express and convey, on some levels, the meaning that the original audience experiences to the targeted audience?
Nope, but it certainly never will the way you want it to be done.
>You have no idea what you’re talking about
Yeah I guess that’s why I fansub and you spend your time complaining on a blog about superficial rubbish.
>Nope, but it certainly never will the way you want it to be done.
So you don’t disagree on that…. How about arguing how unlocalized translation isn’t better then? Amuse me instead of dismissing it because you simply believe otherwise. And if it will never be done in the way I want it to be done, then why have there already been countless translations that are more or less how I want it?
>Yeah I guess that’s why I fansub and you spend your time complaining on a blog about superficial rubbish.
Fansubber or not, you clearly don’t know what you’re talking. I t shows in your posts that you don’t. I guess a translation that is better and closer to the original source in terms of meaning, nuances, and portrayal is all superficial rubbish for because you don’t care and think it’s useless. As much as you don’t, other people do care about improving their own watching/reading experience. How hilarious, one thing that you do care for is to spend your time arguing on a blog over something you don’t care for. You have even been arguing longer than I have.
>I guess a translation that is better and closer to the original source in terms of meaning, nuances, and portrayal is all superficial rubbish for because you don’t care and think it’s useless.
Nope, that’s actually very important in a translation. But sprinkling honorifics throughout a translation isn’t what adds meaning, nuance and portrayal to it, it’s the quality of the actual translation itself that does that. Compared to that, caring about whether honorifics are there or not is indeed superficial rubbish. My preference is not to have them, but I’ll go with whoever has the best translation/editing regardless of that (this usually seems to be the groups who avoid using them, coincidentally enough)
>How about arguing how unlocalized translation isn’t better then?
We’re not even talking about localization. If you want to seem like you know what you’re talking about, a good start would be learning the meaning of the words you use.
+1
best subtitles are original closed captions.
Fuckin’ Daiz impregnating every group he shoves his dick in. My eyes are shitting out roris because of watching your epenis covered release.
Daiz is a known fansubbing terrorist, accused of having dealings with the infamous groups, gg, Commie and Coalguys, and killing millions of innocent honorifics and weeabooisms. He is also thought to be responsible for promoting the hated 10-bit encode, and killing fansubbing in general.
If you see this person, please contact the Internet Police immediately. We must stop him before he corrupts any more innocent fansub groups.
But it’s known that Daiz controls the Internet Police…
Thanks!
How the FUCK do you get an “l” in there? Every site I’ve seen translates it to “Nyarko” or “Nyaruko” (AniDB, AnimeNewsNetwork, TheTVDB, even Wikipedia). I admit to not knowing Japanese myself, but I have never seen anything translated like that.
But it seems that Rori, Underwater, and GG are the only ones subbing this, and they all used “l”. Weird as hell.
It’s just a matter of feel. While Nyar/Nyaruko is the accurate name, Nyarlko actually sounds like what it is supposed to be. Nyarko is read Ni-iar-ko and Nyaruko Ni-ia-ru-ko, one omits the “ru” and the other is too pronounced, Nyarlko actually make us read the “arl” part of the name without sounding out of place. Well, I guess.
Because she’s named after H. P. Lovecraft’s “Nyarlathotep”. Duh.
…Once again, overthinking loses against common sense. Yeah, that. It’s not like names and titles can be weird with japanese being such a different language and all!… Oh who am I fooling.
Wow, this sure was fun to read. I used to want honorifics in every sub too, then I realized “Wait, I can hear them anyway”. But it seems I’m one of the special people who ca read AND listen at the same time.
I don’t think you’ve read enough. I don’t think you actually cared about honorifics at all either. My argument covers why it’d make the translation better. And Space CQC pointed out the issues when subs lack honorifics and you have to go by audio. Why make it unpleasant for the mind? Both the ear and mind should be pleased. I’ll add that it’s bad practice, especially in shaping and nuturing anime/manga fans and fansubbbers. Also, that excuse wouldn’t work on source that are text based.
I don’t really know what your problem is, but for me, and a lot of other people, it is not “unpleasant for the mind”. Just because that’s how you feel does not mean that how everyone else feels. Grow up.
Seeing untranslated words in the subtitles is unpleasant for my mind.
Wanting a better watching experience.and translation is my problem, I guess? I was considering the general who actually cares, not those who don’t or even dislikes it. I suppose you should count yourself fortunate for having a callous mind.
@Xythar
I wonder how you get by with all those unavoidable untranslated Japanese names, nouns, and terms. I think you should consider dropping anime….no, Japan completely.
@Pettanko Maker
I wonder how you get by with all those unavoidably translated English words in your subtitles that couldn’t possibly capture the deep original meaning of the original Japanese script. I think you should consider dropping life completely.